I’ve witnessed some good arguments for/against the existence of God, or the reliability and coherence of science. Howsoever, exceptions exist, and I’m going to analytically rebut some arguments from Ahmad (that’s what written) because they don’t make sense.
1. You seem to think that because you can ‘see’ the sun it therefore must exist. You evidently have not heard of solipsism. How can you prove that anything except your own mind exists?? How do you know everything you see, hear, smell, taste or otherwise perceive are not just conjured in your mind? You don’t, do you? Go look up solipsism if you are still unsure as to what I’m talking about.
Rebuttal: I think solipsism is just a reality check on, well, reality. It is, by no means, practical, and its framework is rather a bizarre one. I would go to an extent to say that, solipsism… is pretty useless. Of course you can’t prove anything other than your mind exists, but that wouldn’t negate the existence of an external world. Besides, solipsism is empty, being the non-falsifiable philosophy it is. Everything I say will be fitted through “one own’s mind” or something, ergo it doesn’t mean anything. It’s like saying reality is a dream, reality is a simulation, reality is an illusion etc. Technically, you could create arguments for it, but you won’t get anywhere. It’s useless and non-falsifiable, that’s my point. Here is a hand. Can you feel it? Here is another one. Can you feel that one, too? Therefore, an external world exists. Oh, but I forgot, you can just say, it’s the products of the mind. See my point? It’s useless to state a skeptical hypothesis about reality at this point. And yes, we can empirically identify the sun, it is painfully obvious that we and other living things are affected by it, so it exists. Sort of simple logic right there.
2. Okay, let me help you out here. The correct answer is NO you cannot ‘prove ‘ that anything you see around you exists. You cannot ‘prove’ that your own body exists. So you see, according to your limited concept of proof NOTHING around you exists. So why do you restrict your disbelief to God? Why not disbelieve in EVERYTHING you see, hear, smell or taste. According to your limited concept of proof, you cannot prove the existence of ANY of these things.
So essentially what you have done is created a model of proof that necessitates that nothing can be proven, therefore you have defined God out of existence, which means that your disbelief in him is based upon fallacious circular reasoning. Until you re-evaluate your methodology for understanding the universe around you, you will never find proof for the existence of anything, whether Creator or creation. For the believer, every single thing constitutes proof of an Almighty transcendent power who has created us all. You have not arisen out of chaos and been transformed into a being with consciousness for no purpose or by no cause. Contemplate that.
Rebuttal: Again, you can’t prove anything exists (beyond the shadow of a doubt), but that statement is useless and unmeaningful. I can’t prove my own body exist? Useless. Even if I chop off your hand or decapitate you, I can’t prove either one exists “externally”. I really do hope you can see the ludicrosity and the indisputability of solipsism as having no impact on any philosophical or scientific principles. Whether or not the reality is the products of our image, or a simulation or a dream, it doesn’t change that an apple that I’m holding right now exist. There’s no realistic reason to assume such a hypothesis about reality. Why don’t I disbelieve everything? Well, why would I, things do exist. You can experience and reason about it consistently means that it exist. About the proof; even by applying the scientific method, you cannot give proof. It’s not science’s or philosophy’s job to yield proofs, that’s mathematics’s jobs. Even with the aforementioned stance on proof or knowledge, you are still able to know existence. Refer to the hand argument.
No one has created a model that necessitates that nothing can be proven, we (I’m guessing he’s referring to scientists or rationalists) only restrict existing things to that which can be experienced or reasoned about. We haven’t defined God out of existence, because God is inexplicably existent. I’m not sure about re-evaluating the scientific method or philosophical rational arguments, because those are the clearest ways to acquire knowledge. Let me give you an example. We can see, taste and feel plants. Plants that are watered live. Plants that are not watered will wilt or die. With the countless experiments testing this hypothesis, and innumerable observations about it (I’m pretty sure you have seen it, too), we can give evidence of the existence of the necessary agent for said plants. I could give evidence for the existence of something using the framework of science. In fact, a plethora of incidents could be explained or be showed evidence for the existence of any objects or causes about them through scientific reasoning. I can’t see a “model that brings God out of existence” in this one. Whether it’s external or internal, it is at this point irrelevant. It would be tremendously beneficial if you were to pick up a science textbook.
“For the believer, every single thing constitutes proof of an Almighty transcendent power who has created us all.” Oh, really? Where did you gain that knowledge? Why not apply solipsism to that? I have not arisen from and “transformed” into a being with consciousness out of chaos. What do you mean by chaos? Evolution wasn’t and isn’t chaotic. And what is consciousness, anyway? Perhaps the greatest sign of God.
3. It’s called reasoning and logic, ultimately science is based upon this, nor core facts (trust me, I’m studying medicine, and everything we learn is just a ‘theory’ which is then taken to be proof). For example, we remained for hundreds of years following newtons first law,until Einstein came along and said we cant go faster than the speed of light, they are all theories, not ‘solid proof’. Therefore, if you see a picture, for example a Van Gogh, whether it is a dog,cat,landscape,portrait, you look at it and tell me, its a van Gogh, because he has a certain style. Similarly, why when we look at this world we don’t say, well these humans,animals plants etc… they are all by the same artist. On the contrary, what your saying is, they all look the same, but i think it makes more sense to assume that the the picture painted itself, with paint and a paintbrush that came from nowhere. Not logic. If you think that we are made by evolution, then again, fine believe we came from animals, but that doesn’t negate the point that animals were created by God.
Rebuttal: Again, pick up a science text book. Read up on terminologies of science and their contexts and usage. A theory in colloquial usage is not the same as a scientific theory. And you can never say “just” a theory. A scientific theory is in the highest tier of scientific knowledge. Not “just a theory”, but “gloriously and triumphantly a theory!” There is never a solid proof, as I said, because it’s not a scientist’s job to provide proofs. I’m not sure if I fully grasp your second point. I think this the argument. Like, if all paintings of Van Gogh are put side to side, you know for sure they’re his paintings, because the recurring style and manner of the drawings are identical or similar. But why when we look at this world, we don’t say they’re all by the same artist, or the same “creator”, if you will. Does it make sense to say that all these amazing and splendid creatures and plants are “made” by something that came out of nowhere? So I think his point is, even if evolution is true, it’s illogical to say that the animals and us weren’t created by God. This can be true, however it’s hard to make an analogy of creator and creation in the same sense that life itself was created because God fits Himself in everything, so really, you have to know what’s God. You have to lucidly state what relation to nature that God has. Even if we undoubtedly comprehend the order and structure of the universe, to say that something has caused it will inevitably refer to the unknowable, for the cause must reside and exist outside of the universe, thus rendering impossible empirical knowledge and rational understanding. At least currently. And again, what is God?
4. If we are simply mere chance, and we began from the Big-bang, then why is it that despite billions of KNOWN planets, universes,solar systems..the lot. We are the only planet to have obvious human life. In other words, we all started from the big-bang,randomly,noone caused it. Why didnt everything evolve in the same way, so that every planet, or at least 1/100000000000000000000000 planets ended up with a human being, or even an amoeba (one celled organism). Yes, we havent explored that far out, however we can still trace millions of planets, and not one has similar life to us. Hence why NASA are going crazy trying to find water somewhere, to show that life exists. The reason why we turned out different, or why we evolved differently if you may, is because something interfered in that, and im not saying believe in the Muslim God, but rather, that thing/person which caused that change and for us to be in existance must, in my opinion, exist.
To give u a scientific example once again, Newtons first law states that an object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an external resultant force. If no external force acts, then everything will remain uniform, apply the same to the universe, we are expanding at a constant speed, yet, why the huge differences in planets, and so on…
Rebuttal or Response: We were NOT mere chance. I can’t stress that enough. Why didn’t everything evolve in the same way? Well, obviously because no other planets are able to sustain life like us. But even if that’s the case, that question is irrelevant. That’s like asking why is there little life? It doesn’t mean anything. So why are there no other intelligent or just any life outside of the earth? Plenty of explanations. Maybe they are very far, maybe there aren’t any life at all, maybe intelligent living things outside of the earth declared war against themselves or others, thus destructing life on that particular planet or neighbor planets. Maybe life is periodically annihilated by nature itself (gamma ray bursts, meteor, asteroids etc), maybe the earth is rare, maybe the evidence isn’t susceptible to us. There are other reasons, but I’ll put an end there. So his point is because humans are special (I agree), an interference, or a divine intervention, if you will, must have occurred. I don’t know. You don’t know too. Nobody knows. But just because I don’t know what caused consciousness or mystical experiences, doesn’t mean I can fill in the blanks though. That’s another important point, just because I don’t know something doesn’t mean I can pretend like I know it. Albeit God is the best explanation for these kind of qualia. Like you said, the reason that this planet has life is because an interference must have exist. Well, yes, but it would be absurd to attribute it to anything that we can’t prove. But, just because we do exist, that doesn’t make our existence necessary. Life exist on rare earth =/= necessary existence. When life began on earth about 3 billion plus years ago, we don’t know WHY it’s there, and even if we’ll never know, so what? Don’t claim anything.
So, if there is no external force (that is to say, God), then why does everything move? Why does variations exist? I’ll tell you why. Because you DON”T apply the same to the universe, like how you said. When we say external force, we meant external force INSIDE of the universe. Like an external force pushing leaves (wind) for example. The natural working processes of the universe are always viewed in an immanent manner. You can say external in the sense that it refers to the outside of the universe, but then we WILL be stepping outside our boundaries and try fitting in words in a sphere where it cannot mean anything as the truth. You can’t apply human concepts to outside of the macrocosm. Why are the planets different? I guess they comprise different atoms.
5. If we were created by chance, and this world has no point to it, why dont we just go and kill ourselves. We complain about this life so so much, and we started by chance, so when your drowning in the swimming pool, why scream for help, why dont u jst let yourself drown, what have you got to live for? I dont intend any insult by this point, but in life, we only work for something when there is a point, or outcome. E.G i worked my ass off to get into med-school, i wanted to get into med-school so i could have a good career and a good job, i want a good rewarding job because i want to raise a family, etc etc…(simplified view of my life.lool)If there is no point to our existance its only logical for there to be no point to us living either, however your instinctive action to stay alive shows me that God exists. Again, scientific point. DNA has loads of parts, and some parts, we dont know what they do, they are just there, they dont code for anything, theyre useless. yet i asked a professor the reason for there presense and he said that we dont know yet. he didnt say that there was no point to them! Things in nature/science arent created for ‘no reason’, everything has a purpose. So we must have been created for a purpose, by someon/thing that actualy knew what it was doing, not some random process.
Rebuttal or Response: We did NOT come about by chance. Read about natural selection. Even if we have purposes, that doesn’t mean the word “purpose” itself carries intrinsic or inherent value and is of divine origin. From biological aspects, maybe the “purpose” is to balance your body’s intake of food or to replicate. From philosophical/religious aspects, it’s to do good deeds and avoid vices and wicked crimes. To seek happiness. To become one with God. To realize one’s potential. That’s the closest thing to a meaning of purpose we can have. Why don’t we just kill ourselves? Well, why would we? Maybe there’s no life after death, so make the best of your existence. Be moderate, do moral things. Why is it that when life has no ultimate or divine destiny (heaven/hell) to which we can believe in, we must either “kill ourselves” or “do immoral things”? Why not do good things? We’ll never understand the profound meaning of our existence, so just do things that accord to order in this universe, such as morality. Species have evolved in that way and we can universalize what can be considered “good” and “bad”, so follow it. It’s the order of the universe. I’m not sure if your instinct to stay alive is related directly to God, we’ve evolved in a way that we want to survive. That’s the aim of living things. We don’t know why, life just does that. About the DNA, maybe we can’t be sure of what role is play, maybe we’ll find out sooner. Or maybe it doesn’t have any purpose, it’s just there. Everything has a purpose, but the word “purpose” must be circumscribed within the human values. Because to say inherent value or purpose exist implies the thing is inherent in itself, which is impossible for us to know. There is order in this universe, but we can’t say there is a “meaning” in this universe. The universe does not owe you any sense of real purpose or meaning.
4. This is a vague point, and kinda ties in with the previous ones, but ive got an early start tomorrow, and need to get some sleep! Basically, the very fact that you question the existance of God, is more or less showing you that a God out there exists. For e.g you wouldnt go hungry if there was no food, or you wouldnt become thirsty if there was no water! Most of the time, we dont question something that is soo remotely unbelievable, and distant….
Response: This is the only argument that I sort of agree with.
5. Lastly, i doubt ive convinced you of the existance of God, and to be honest i hardly expected it when writing this. Thinking about this stuff makes me more firm in my belief and just higlights to me that the path i am on is the true one in my eyes. The way your question was posed shows you are looking for a challenge as opposed to wanting to actually find an answer. You probably already ahd your mind made before you read this either way. Thing is? In science, proof never refutes a theory it only backs one up. In other words, when i carry out a scientific experiment, irrespective of the outcome, it can never ‘prove’ that a theory is wrong, it can only prove a theory is right…if that makes sense. For e.g is light a wave or a particle, there are theories to SUPPORT both only, and none to REFUTE. Point being, if we want to do everything the scientific way, you have to prove that god doesnt exist, not the other way round.
Rebuttal or Response: I understand what you just said. That is the case because a theory stands after multiple experiments. A scientific theory IS FALSIFIABLE. Meaning, you could refute something about it. However, the theory will try to explain any gaps by incorporating new ideas, or if that doesn’t work, scientists will attempt to come out with new theories. They will test their hypothesis and hopefully produce better theories. A scientific theory is supported by most observations because it stems from those observations. About your second point though, I can’t bring myself to say that I agree. You can’t prove God doesn’t exist. You can’t prove a negative, if you’re talking about philosophy or reason. Science is a little different, because it’s empirical-based, which basically means it’s contingent. And with your saying that “Point being, if we want to do everything the scientific way, you have to prove that god doesnt exist, not the other way round.” No, that’s not true, at least in accordance to my possibly flimsy reality’s view. You have to PROVE your claim, NOT waiting for disproof of your claim. The default position is the neutral one. If I claim there is a dragon in the sky, the veracity of my assertion depends on evidences for it’s existence, not of other people’s ability to refute it. I have to prove my claim in order to make it substantial.
Thank you, this is just what I think, and what do you think?